Posts by Joe Grundy

10

There won't be snow in Africa (xmas songs you hate)

by rebel8 in

jw
friends

ok so be a scrooge or grinch for 5 minutes.

you know you want to.. i loooove xmas songs but there are a few that make me cringe.. the old feed the world.

"there won't be snow in africa.

Joe Grundy

My miserable Grumpy Old Git persona comes to the forefront at this time of year.

' I don't give a sh*t who you are, Fatty. Get that f***ing sleigh off my roof'.

Apart from that I'm quite nice and cuddly, really.

28

I am going to pioneer after the holidays!

by snakeface in

jw
friends

yes, you heard right.. as you know, most christian organizations publish and distribute little tracts with their gospel message.

well they also make some that expose the lies of the wt, and explain how it is a cult.

even if people are not interested in the "gospel message" in these tracts, the tracts do a good job exposing the wt as a cult.. now, those of you who are now agnostic or athiests or just non-religious, please keep reading, to understand what i plan to do.... i am expecting to receive $$ for christmas.

Joe Grundy

(I never was a dub).

Dear snakeface.

I understand that you're in the US where (sadly) in some parts they take religion seriously. Here in the UK it is generally a matter of indifference (even with most church-goers) and borderline wacko groups like JWs, Mormons and rabid born-agains are avoided as far as possible.

For example, in my residential street the only reaction to dubs out in FS is that neighbours warn each other when they're on the horizon.

I concur with the above posts. Whilst I understand the damage that WTBTS causes, for those outside the organisation it is/they are inconsequential, irrelevant and no-one gives them a first, let alone a second, thought. They are a non-entity.

So, as others have said, you could spend your money better. Buy some books by Dawkins or Ehrman, go on a trip, or invest in your pleasure by buying some single malts.

There is a sayng: 'There's no point in discussing religion with the religious'. It's true. And there's no point in discussing it with anyone else because they don't give a toss - they regard it as the useless irrelevance which it ultimately is.

Good luck.

9

2012 WT financial statements in Britain

by EndofMysteries in

http://theworldnewsmedia.org/file/view/2012-wtbtsb-financial-report.pdf.

it seems it is possible to get some financial statements from some countries.. it's interesting seeing how they must report in what way they are a charity.

many spin doctoring and word games to make it appear they are doing charitable things.. also interesting was how the trustees were consenting to reducing the reserves and sending them to another country, probably wt usa it looks like.

Joe Grundy

marked

5

Awarded a Badge of Honour - I'm an 'Apostate'

by Joe Grundy in

(i never was a jw).. just had a d2d (fs) visit.

older guy (said he's been in since 1958 and is an elder) with a younger guy (20 or so).

looking out at the street i obviously drew the short straw because further down the street was a pair of not unattractive younger women jws.

Joe Grundy

I could have done so much better, of course (but I remained polite and questioning throughout) but I was caught 'on the hop'.

The elder, TBH, was the sort of bloke who -when I was a dibble executing a search warrant - would have stood there dribbling about 'calling legal' or some such crap and would have been politely but firmly elbowed out of the way (or nicked).

The younger guy seemed to have recognised the concept of 'research' 'peer review' and that sort of stuff but who can say?

I don't have unlimited time to spend with these people, I have more important things to do. They may believe that their 'message' is the most important ever but to me (and most of the rest of the world, I suspect) they are a minor annoying irrelevance who deserve a little passing pity.

Being now an official worldy apostate I can now confess that at least one of the sisters I noticed out this morning appeared to be deserving of more than a little passing pity. I have an irreverent image of a breathless red-cheeked sister reporting back that her FS was 'awesome'.... Would do her more good than sitting through endless WT meetings, at least.

5

Awarded a Badge of Honour - I'm an 'Apostate'

by Joe Grundy in

(i never was a jw).. just had a d2d (fs) visit.

older guy (said he's been in since 1958 and is an elder) with a younger guy (20 or so).

looking out at the street i obviously drew the short straw because further down the street was a pair of not unattractive younger women jws.

Joe Grundy

(I never was a JW).

Just had a D2D (FS) visit. Older guy (said he's been in since 1958 and is an elder) with a younger guy (20 or so). Looking out at the street I obviously drew the short straw because further down the street was a pair of not unattractive younger women JWs. I suppose J saved them from knocking at my door and thus raising potential lustful thoughts in me.

I wasn't really in the mood so gave my usual response (Yes, I'll take a magazine thanks, goodbye') but the (self-confessed) elder wouldn't let it go. These are some of the points we discussed AFAICR.

My confusion over who is FDS - 'anointed' or GB. When and why change?

Wonderful research tool - JW dot org. No it isn't, and WT condemned internet as demonic until they caught up.

WT lit cherry picks and misquotes.

What about 1975? He gave party line. What about 'Millions Now Living' etc? Well, millions living now could be 'saved'. (He thought it was CTR that gave the speeches on that, I put him right, but he obviously wasn't keen to talk about him or the alky 'Judge').

Why the changes - what about photos of Xmas at Bethel?

Why the recent financial changes? Why build a new HQ? Why buy the swish waterfront property in Bangor?

Then we got onto child abuse. I mentioned Candace Conti (of course) and told him that if he was as keen on ressearch as he said, go look that up. Asked him, as an elder, what did the Flock book say? Call Legal. Told him I was a retired 30 year cop, dealt with a lot of child abuse, why would he call legal not police. He'd do that as well, he said, after he'd called legal. WTF, I said but more politely, have lawyers in a religious org got to do with it? And the two-witnesses rule? Mumble. I was extensisvely trained to deal with child abuse issues - you're an elder, sits on JCs, what training have you had? Mumble.

And what was with the JW dot org badges, signs, accessories, etc. (Neither was wearing one as far as I could see). 'We have to move in modern times' he said. Sorry, I thought your god was the same yesterday, today, forever? 'We must adapt'.

Consistently offered a bible study. I'd be happy to do that, I said, being an interested researcher (so am I, he said) but no WT lit, and we should start on the context and history. Which sources have you researched? Mumble. What about someone like Ehrman, I said. Blank. We should look at credible peer-reviewed research, I said. Mumble.

I don't think it can happen, I said, because if you told your fellow elders that for the next month you were going to eschew WT stuff and just research credible sources you'd be in trouble.

That led us on to DF-ing (we don't shun) and what about people who were previously DFed for believing what is now 'New Light'? Mumble.

And then it came - 'you are obviously an apostate'. 'Sorry' I said 'What's an apostate?'. 'Someone who talks against us'. I explained that my understanding (and that of most people) was that an apostate was someone who left a religion - like a muslim who is the worthy of death - and said 'I never was a JW, but if I was RC you'd be happy to convert me and make me an appostate from that religion?'. Mumble.

And then they left, but I invited him back for a bible study at any time. No doubt he shook the dust off his feet.

So there we are, an elder has branded me an apostate. (Which I am, but not from the dubs).

I felt a bit sorry for the elder, in a way. He is probably much too far into it to start thinking and possibly relies on it for his self-worth etc. He wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. It was interesting because I addressed some of my answers to the younger guy, who often nodded in agreement and seemed ready to answer - but the elder jumped in. No wonder they do their door-to-door visits in pairs.

Maybe no more visits for me if I'm recorded as a big A. Shame in a way because in the right mood I enjoy them, and there were some reasonably hot (OK, warm) sisters on the other side of the street ...

Two thoughts occur. First, noticing he date I suppose it's 'get your hours in' time. Second, I wonder if I should do a Data Protection request to see if I'm on their records ...

All I wanted was a quiet Saturday morning at home in preparation for some/many beers this afternnon with my worldly (in so many ways) brothers.

23

JWs - A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw (i make this point in - almost - every post) but having been brought up ('raised' for our us cousins) in a non-conformist fundy sect with 'rapture' aspirations, it wasn't that different.. i still have extended family members in it, or in that mindset, but we rarely discuss religion.

in particular, my sister and bil lost their son (my nephew) some years ago when he was just 13. their comfort is that he is in a 'better place' and i don't want to challenge that to them.. i keep up with all things jw here in this forum and maintain my academic interest and these are just my thoughts as an outsider, for what they are worth.. ime, those people who have heard of jws tend to lump them in with mormons and other crazies and have no knowledge or interest in them - other than to warn neighbours when they are about.. where i live should be prime 'witnessing' territory but they rarely come round, even in the recent leafletting campaign.

they are not as effective as the people who regularly call with the latest menus from the local curry/chinese/kebab houses.. on the occasions when jws have called, despite invitations to come in and have a cup of tea, etc., none has ever wanted to engage in conversation, far less progress to an invitation to a kh meeting or start a bible study (and i always present myself as an 'imterested householder').. my conversations with people in general and friends in the real world lead me to conclude that few people have heard of jws, those that have regard them as a minor irrevelant nuisance and that there is no interest in their message or beliefs.. a few months ago i did a 'drive-past' of the million pound seafront property in bangor, north wales that wt recently bought for use as a 'translation office' (ha ha!).

Joe Grundy

Thanks for the responses.

As a non sequitur, one of my earliest memories is when I was a child (perhaps 50 years ago) being in town with my mother and seeing a couple of men in the street. They must have had a sandwich board or some other means of being obvious because I asked who they were. 'Colpourteurs' she said, with a dismissive sneer. Why on earth that stuck in my mind I have no idea, but I can remember thinking that if they were doing what 'we' were all encouraged to do (spread the word, preach the gospel) why did she disapprove?

(To put this in context, my mother's mother firmly believed that someone she knew had died when her arms fell off because she was knitting (i.e. working) pn the sabbath. It doesn't come much more crazy than that.)

Just to re-emphasise, none of this is to mimise the harm that the JW cult does. But it's not alone.

I read recently about the GB edict that men should be MS by 23 and that women should only marry MS-potential men. It reminded me strongly of the stuff I was brought up with - and the biggest fear that cults/sects have, i.e. that people will marry outside the cult/sect. IME, especially where dating etc. rules were strict, potential partners could be found 'just outside' one's own sect/cult - and the willy is stronger than the brain sometimes.

The financial bits about WTBTS continue to fascinate me (as a former Fraud Squad commander) but as far as R&F goes I believe that the org is becoming less and less relevant to the real world. Proselitising just tp try to get people to log on to jw prg is a joke IMHO but it gives JWs something to do and (perhaps more importantly) it gives WT something to tell JWs what to do.

23

JWs - A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw (i make this point in - almost - every post) but having been brought up ('raised' for our us cousins) in a non-conformist fundy sect with 'rapture' aspirations, it wasn't that different.. i still have extended family members in it, or in that mindset, but we rarely discuss religion.

in particular, my sister and bil lost their son (my nephew) some years ago when he was just 13. their comfort is that he is in a 'better place' and i don't want to challenge that to them.. i keep up with all things jw here in this forum and maintain my academic interest and these are just my thoughts as an outsider, for what they are worth.. ime, those people who have heard of jws tend to lump them in with mormons and other crazies and have no knowledge or interest in them - other than to warn neighbours when they are about.. where i live should be prime 'witnessing' territory but they rarely come round, even in the recent leafletting campaign.

they are not as effective as the people who regularly call with the latest menus from the local curry/chinese/kebab houses.. on the occasions when jws have called, despite invitations to come in and have a cup of tea, etc., none has ever wanted to engage in conversation, far less progress to an invitation to a kh meeting or start a bible study (and i always present myself as an 'imterested householder').. my conversations with people in general and friends in the real world lead me to conclude that few people have heard of jws, those that have regard them as a minor irrevelant nuisance and that there is no interest in their message or beliefs.. a few months ago i did a 'drive-past' of the million pound seafront property in bangor, north wales that wt recently bought for use as a 'translation office' (ha ha!).

Joe Grundy

I never was a JW (I make this point in - almost - every post) but having been brought up ('raised' for our US cousins) in a non-conformist fundy sect with 'Rapture' aspirations, it wasn't that different.

I still have extended family members in it, or in that mindset, but we rarely discuss religion. In particular, my sister and BiL lost their son (my nephew) some years ago when he was just 13. Their comfort is that he is in a 'better place' and I don't want to challenge that to them.

I keep up with all things JW here in this forum and maintain my academic interest and these are just my thoughts as an outsider, for what they are worth.

IME, those people who have heard of JWs tend to lump them in with mormons and other crazies and have no knowledge or interest in them - other than to warn neighbours when they are about.

Where I live should be prime 'witnessing' territory but they rarely come round, even in the recent leafletting campaign. They are not as effective as the people who regularly call with the latest menus from the local curry/Chinese/kebab houses.

On the occasions when JWs have called, despite invitations to come in and have a cup of tea, etc., none has ever wanted to engage in conversation, far less progress to an invitation to a kh meeting or start a bible study (and I always present myself as an 'imterested householder').

My conversations with people in general and friends in the real world lead me to conclude that few people have heard of JWs, those that have regard them as a minor irrevelant nuisance and that there is no interest in their message or beliefs.

A few months ago I did a 'drive-past' of the million pound seafront property in Bangor, North Wales that WT recently bought for use as a 'translation office' (ha ha!). My companion was impressed with the property but found it hard to connect it with the minor irrelevant nuisances who knock her door occasionally.

In summary, for all that JWs may believe that they are, and for all their rebranding with jw org etc., in the real world they remain a minor sect/cult that few normal people have any inyerest in or knowledge of,

(None of the above is intended to minimise or ignore the very real damage caused by the JW cult).

142

Governing Body Member Gerrit Loesch Must Eventually Take The Witness Stand In Child Molestation Lawsuits

by frankiespeakin in

with many more cases in the offing the zalkin lawfirm will press the issue again and again and force gerrit loesch to testify.

what say you?.

.

Joe Grundy

PS: It is always a good tactic in consumer-type disputes to obtain the name of the manager, customer services rep, etc. that you deal with and explain to them (always courteously, of course) that they will be named/sued personally as well as their parent organisation should the issue not be resolved. The parent organisation may accept vicarious liability (sometimes this is forced on them by law) but the knowledge of personal liability focusses minds.

In England & Wales, at least, each JW congregation is a separate legal entity, registered as such with the Charity Commissioners. The trustees (probably aka elders) are completely and personally and severally liable. Not a job I'd want and I hope that in due time as more wake up not a job that anyone would want. What would happen then?

Just speculatin'

142

Governing Body Member Gerrit Loesch Must Eventually Take The Witness Stand In Child Molestation Lawsuits

by frankiespeakin in

with many more cases in the offing the zalkin lawfirm will press the issue again and again and force gerrit loesch to testify.

what say you?.

.

Joe Grundy

This is, I think, worth mentioning. I never was a JW. It may only apply to England & Wales.

When I was a senior police officer/manager it was repeated many times during traing seminars related to diversity/discrimination/health & safety etc. issues that we - as managers - were personally liable for defaults and failures as well as the organisation. That seems to be a principle in E&W law.

I would not want to hold a position of responsibility in an organisation (far less the JWs, of course) and if I did I would be looking to take out some form of indemnity insurance.

Indemnity insurance would, of course, show a failure to rely on your god of choice to protect you and make you more attractive as a target of a civil suit.

3

Why I Am An Angry Atheist

by Joe Grundy in

why i am an angry atheist.

(i never was a jw, but the basics were not so different).. .

i was brought up (raised, for my us friends) in an off-shoot of the plymouth brethren gospel hall culture.

Joe Grundy

Why I Am An Angry Atheist

(I never was a JW, but the basics were not so different).

I was brought up (raised, for my US friends) in an off-shoot of the Plymouth Brethren Gospel Hall culture. Not as extreme as the Exclusive Brethren but not far removed. No clergy – every brother was expected to be a Bible Scholar – (not sisters, of course) and it’s not surprising that within a couple of years of their foundation in the 1860s they’d split into factions which would never speak to each other again, each convinced that they –and only they – had the ‘Truth’.

I knew none of this at the time, of course, nor that the time of their foundation (1860s-ish) coincided with the foundation of so many other sects/cults.

My earliest recollections, from the age of 3 or 4, are of Sunday morning ‘meeting’, Sunday afternoon ‘Sunday School’ and Sunday evening ‘Gospel Meetings’ in the Gospel Hall.

At the front of the hall, painted as a scroll on the wall in gold and green, were the words ‘God Is Love’. And we sat under that as we listened (mornings) to the thunder of the OT and (evenings) to the NT hoping that some poor soul would come forward to ‘be saved’. That generally didn’t happen apart from the poor disturbed bloke who got ‘saved’ regularly every week or two.

That was back in the 1960s. In the 1970s we moved geographically to a Welsh (English language) Baptist church. The theology was similar, but now there were ‘educationally qualified’ preachers, ‘the Rev Dr xxxxxx’ etc. doing the preaching. These were people who had been to university, studied biblical history and so on.

In the pre-internet days I started to study (as best I could) the history of the Bible, etc. It didn’t take long, even in those days, before there were more questions than answers.

I remember a conversation with an aged Church of England priest. He didn’t believe a word of it but was comfortable in the overall pattern.

Now, I am angry because I know that those people (almost exclusively men) who had studied KNEW (or at least had grave doubts about) that they weren’t preaching the ‘truth’. From the ‘nativity’ stories back to OT stories, and ultimately back to the ‘6,000 year old world’ as taught in Genesis they knew it wasn’t true and yet they insisted on teaching it to us.

Recently, I was putting my grand-daughter (5) to bed and we were having our bed-time story. Someone had given her a book of bible stories. We opened it – she discarded it as ‘crap’. Instead, we read a Princess Barbie (or something) story which she can, thankfully, recognise as pure fantasy.

I am angry because it took me so long to recognise the twaddle being fed to me. I am more angry because those who fed it to me knew better but chose not to. No excuse, I think.